Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by cupid_come_as_u_r »

Schneider wrote:
I just walk around feeling like this all the time. :lol:
The grass really did do wonders for Danny, here 8D

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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

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:lol: Fuckin' A. 8D
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by XsInMyEyes »

Schneider wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:21 am
I don't know what I am anymore. Politically, I mean. I'm a crazy mo'fucka. Make war on machines. Drop acid not bombs. Let's all wear paisley and grow our hair. :lol:
Likewise sir
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by KristinNirvana »

XsInMyEyes wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:02 pm
Schneider wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:21 am
I don't know what I am anymore. Politically, I mean. I'm a crazy mo'fucka. Make war on machines. Drop acid not bombs. Let's all wear paisley and grow our hair. :lol:
Likewise sir
Unfortunately he turned into a Trump supporter.
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by XsInMyEyes »

KristinNirvana wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:10 pm

To answer the question this should be obvious but punk rockers hate Ronald Regan because punk rockers tend to be very liberal, basically hippies with different music...
Old post, but not really. While it was not unusual for adherents of the "punk" counterculture to have a liberal mindset, the original aim of the "punk" movement was to undermine and get rid of hippies, since the punk's aesthetic and demeanor incorporated elements of rawness, aggression, even nihilism and macho toughness, which clashed profoundly with the "satyagraha" of hippies; also rejecting their idealism. Moreover, recreational use of hallucinogenic substances was heavily integrated into hippie culture, whereas punk, though by no means drug free, the "Straight edge" ethos (no drugs, smoking, alcohol, etc) formed an influential contingent within the movement.
In the years before forming the Proclaimers, Craig and Charlie Reid played as part of a punk act called "Hippie Hasslers", as if to suggest that they hassle hippies ... IIRC they actually began using that name after realizing that theirs, Black Flag (!), was in use by a US band.
--
Describing his artistic aims in 2008, English proto-punk artist Mick Farrell had this to say: "...we wanted to be incredibly loud and violent! That says it all. The hippies wanted to be nice and gentle, but our style was the opposite ..."
American music journalist Robert Christgau made this distinction betwixt Hippies and Punks in 1981: "Hippies were rainbow extremists; punks are romantics of black-and-white. Hippies forced warmth; punks cultivate cool"
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The Stooges and Mc5 are considered the first "punk" bands, both emerging from the Detroit rock scene in 1969, and their music was deliberately crude and pugnacious in nature so as to retaliate against hippies; Iggy Pop was famously vocal in his dislike for the entire "hippie" movement.
KristinNirvana wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:21 pm
Unfortunately he turned into a Trump supporter.
Better him than me!
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by KristinNirvana »

I was commenting on the politics, not the vibes.
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by XsInMyEyes »

KristinNirvana wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:01 pm
I was commenting on the politics, not the vibes.
Fair enough, although I would opine that the Hippy-movement was centric to the politics, whereas punk was about the aesthetic and the music.
Moreover, most would say that a vital part of punk was to engross and unite a variety of different political and other backgrounds; liberals, anarchists, socialists, AnCaps, libertarians, Christians, patriots, feminists, animal-rights guys, etc, etc ... there was none of that cross-political unity at all with the Hippies.
Punk bands like the Clash or early Manic Street Preachers had a strong socialist inclinations, while Cock Sparrer, for instance, is highly patriotic.
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by KristinNirvana »

Punk was pretty centric to the politics, it just used music and aesthetic to get the politics across a bit more. And yeah, there there was a ton of that cross-political unity with Hippies. They are where the animal rights movement started, where second wave feminism started, and they were the ones who created being anti-establishment, and of course socialism, communism, and anarchism etc. The one thing they didn't have was Nazis like punk unfortunately does.
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by XsInMyEyes »

KristinNirvana wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:15 pm
Punk was pretty centric to the politics, it just used music and aesthetic to get the politics across a bit more.
Hippy music and aesthetic got their politics across perfectly: if you are singing John Lennon's "Imagine" and wearing a shirt with the "peace symbol" on it, perhaps earrings, a belt or a necklace of that nature, too ... then I, and indeed others, could take a reasonable punt at where you sit politically.
--
Let's take a look at the idea that punk was "centric to the politics", because that is an overgeneralization to say the least...
- Punk-rock first appeared In 1969, and at that point the music had no political connotations whatsoever; bands like the Stooges and MC5 simply wished to purvey a sludgy sound through their music; their lyrics were usually about either sex, rock and roll, or apathy.
- The Ramones rarely wrote political or emotionally-charged lyrics, though Dee Dee and Johnny Ramone were Republicans (exception: “The KKK Took my Baby Away” which Joey, not me , wrote condemning racism)
- Even by 1977, Sex Pistols mostly wrote songs like “Anarchy in the UK” with a sarcastic attitude: Johnny Rotten is decidedly not left-wing nowadays (see his handling of Corbyn, Donald Trump, Russel Brand and Brexit), and he has said that he does not advocate anarchism of either a left-wing or capitalist persuasion. On the other hand, Rotten did sing the phrase "God save the queen, the fascist regime", going on to say as recently as 2015 that he is "not a big fan of the queen"
- Acts such as Sham-69 and Cockney-Rejects were noted for their followings containing rightist, leftist and non-aligned fans. Likewise, their music was rarely political at all, instead reflecting the cultures in which they grew up. Buzzcocks and Undertones similarly refrained from politics, often writing about relationships
--
Of the key 1977 bands, only the Clash, and the Jam if you see them as punk (I do not), wrote lyrics with overtly leftwing undertones
KristinNirvana wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:15 pm
And yeah, there there was a ton of that cross-political unity with Hippies. They are where the animal rights movement started, where second wave feminism started, and they were the ones who created being anti-establishment, and of course socialism, communism, and anarchism etc. The one thing they didn't have was Nazis like punk unfortunately does.
True but, those are all kind of left-wing values though. A lot of them are very similar, and advocates of one, one would expect would advocate another. Rightist virtues such as Anarcho-Capitalism, Patriotism and Libertarianism were unseen in the “Hippy” movement. These made up as much a part of punk as other ideologies and what I am saying is that punk connected individuals with very different politics behind a common form of music, aesthetic and attitude
And again, hippy idealism was deliberately absent from punk.
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Hippies didn't create the "anti-establishment" concept. They might have been the first sociopolitical movement to embrace it, but "embrace" ≠ "invent". “Anti establishment” as a term, in its present-say sense, was coined in 1958 (nine years prior to the first "Hippy" movement) by the London political publication The New Statesman to describe its socially-liberal outlook on many aspects of society, which contradicted the generally conservative and traditionalist outlook of the political elite of the day. The phrase "anti-establishment" first enjoyed widespread currency in 1960s Britain as a descriptor for the "political satire" boom.
--
The lack of Nazis was not the only difference betwixt the “punk” and “hippy” movement -- fascistic values in punk were rejected by the majority of punks, with those of both a leftist and rightist persuasion condemning it.
Having looked at the Wikipedia entry for "Punk Subculture", the very first line states that it "includes a diverse array of ideologies"...
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by KristinNirvana »

There aren't that many rightists in punk though. It's largely a left-wing movement. If you go out to punk shows on the regular, you'll see what I mean that it's all about the politics. The lyrics, what they say at shows etc. It's a political leftist movement that uses music to get the point across. You're only paying attention to the very beginnings of punk rock, not the 80s to the present. The 80s politicized it much more, as a response to the Reagan 80s.
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by XsInMyEyes »

KristinNirvana wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:13 pm
There aren't that many rightists in punk though. It's largely a left-wing movement. If you go out to punk shows on the regular, you'll see what I mean that it's all about the politics. The lyrics, what they say at shows etc. It's a political leftist movement that uses music to get the point across. You're only paying attention to the very beginnings of punk rock, not the 80s to the present. The 80s politicized it much more, as a response to the Reagan 80s.
I have attended punk shows before. During my youth, I played in punk bands. I frequent a bar called the Angel, where punk shows are not uncommon -- the decor consists heavily of pictures of punk bands, like Ramones, U.K Subs, and the Clash -- some bands that I see proclaim their politics, while the lion's share do not: most local bands sing about their experiences in this region.

I was talking mostly about the punk explosion in 1977 because, from European eyes, that was the integral time for punk; when the music was in the mainstream (in the UK punk songs and albums were all over the charts, and bands like Pistols, Sham were on Top of the Pops) and adherents to punk subculture could be encountered at every street corner.
1969-1979 is what I, and many others, typify simply as “punk”: this is when the music genre took shape, first attracted a following, and the cultural explosion of 76-77 happened.
1980- onward I adjudge as “revivalist punk”, or "second wave punk"; these bands and artists played no part in the original punk explosion, or the formative years of the musical genre. These artists often used the sound of 70s band, sometimes taken to extremes of either abrasion, or commerciality, as a base for their own; sometimes embellishing it with their own opinions and values -- as well as interjecting comedy into it, such as the Macc Lads, who humorously utilized politically incorrect and profane lyrics
It is worth noting that in the UK by 1980, though there were still some such adherents around, the punk-rock that was once embraced by the mainstream was seen as dated and severely out-of-fashion.

Obviously, the punk that followed, of Manic Street Preachers, Green Day, Offspring, etc, was largely liberal and politically vocal (counter-example: Husker Du, who claimed to be "completely apolitical"); this punk was, usually, not commercially successful until the "punk revival" of the 1990s, kick-started by albums like Green Day's "Dookie" -- although there were minor exceptions, punk was largely underground post-1979, especially stateside, being overshadowed largely by arena-rock/glam-metal, synth-pop, grunge, etc, etc. It goes more or less without saying that many 70s punks disavowed post-1980 punks as non-genuine and derivative; Johnny Rotten wise-cracking that Green Day, “American Idiot”, described the men behind it perfectly.
Speaking as someone who has grown up in a region where, even today, you will encounter a lot of ex-punks, invariably boomers in their 60s and 50s, and this punk demographic will regularly opine that "punk died in 1980" and similar sentiments -- a record-store manager that I know from Newcastle is an example of this -- a lot of Gen-1 punks, him included, moved onto more cosmopolitan rock music such as R.E.M, Squeeze, U2, the Smiths in the 1980s -- many original-era punk artists moved onto different forms of music: Johnny Rotten forming PiL, Clash moving to post-punk, for instance --- but like anything, there were exceptions; original cultural-punks like Mark Arm, Greg Ginn, Ian Mackaye formed punk bands in the following years.
—-
Still, to state that punks are “just hippies with different music” is wildly overgeneralising the movements.
Wikipedia's words echo: "The punk subculture includes a diverse array of ideologies..."
I am fatigued of this discussion ... we even seem to differ on what "punk" means in a adjectivally-nounal sense
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by KristinNirvana »

Sure, but even punk of that era was political. Even proto-punk was political. Speaking as someone who has studied the histories of rock and punk since the time period in which you would have been a little kid, and who grew up seeing punk around me in the 90s, and who goes to punk shows regularly, I know what I am talking about. You're overgeneralizing the movement of punk by not realizing how much politics has played a part in it.
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by XsInMyEyes »

KristinNirvana wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:39 pm
Sure, but even punk of that era was political. Even proto-punk was political.
I acknowledged that. But again, some artists more than others.
There was much more to punk than just politics; the songs rejected excessive production values of the likes of Pink Floyd, E.L.O or Queen through minimalist arrangements, the attitudes of its adherents (see Sex Pistols, "No Feelings"), the role of localism (Sham-69, "Hersham Boys) ... it is the multi-faceted nature of punk that allowed it to have such a far-reaching influence.
"Proto-punk", if you mean Stooges and NY Dolls, was sporadically political, but contained lyrics about sex, rock and roll, alienation, apathy, often with sardonic undertones
And, as you said, it became twice as politicized in the 80s against Ronald Reagan.
KristinNirvana wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:39 pm
Speaking as someone who has studied the histories of rock and punk since the time period in which you would have been a little kid, and who grew up seeing punk around me in the 90s, and who goes to punk shows regularly, I know what I am talking about.
Similarly, like I established, I can speak as someone who grew up in a region where ex-punks, by then middle-aged, made up a modest but noticeable demographic within society -- I have encountered Gen-1 70s punks since a young age -- I formed my views according to what I saw and heard with them
Once more, I frequent a bar where punk shows are a fairly common sight. Are you aware that I cut my teeth on 70s rock fairly young? I was nine going-on ten when I began listening to rock bands like Deep Purple, Aerosmith, AcDc, Van Halen, but you'll probably remember that I listened to the Sex Pistols at that time too.
I have too studied the history of rock, since I was 10. I have read books, and watched interviews and documentaries.
--
Again, the punk of the 90s is often viewed by 70s punks as false and derivative. "Pop-punk", as Green Day, NOFX, Offspring, Bad Religion etc, etc, were generally known here, is something I nonetheless old enough to be able to remember (when I was a kid of about 5, "American Idiot" was everywhere), since music television channels like Kerrang! are among the popular-culture I was exposed to when I was young. I did not pay much attention to it at the time, even if my first TV-crush was the girl from Paramore, even though I disliked their songs!
--
My father was born in 1969, thus he, during "punk", will have been no younger than you were during "pop punk". Having spoken to him, he says that although he was too young to understand it fully, being 8, he opined that he felt it more to do with variegated rebelliousness rather than being centric to any particular politics. Then again, however, he was young...
He was never into that himself, and his more Boomer siblings, who then were teenagers, preferred Bob Seger and Blue Oyster Cult. He got into music through Dire Straits at 10, and blues-rock and glam-metal as a teen
KristinNirvana wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:39 pm
You're overgeneralizing the movement of punk by not realizing how much politics has played a part in it.
I am condensing the punk movement by what I consider to be the quintessential time for punk.
There's definitely a regional/cultural difference here. I come from a region where 70s punk was embraced by the mainstream; this was far less the case in the US. For us (Northerners)... the word "punk" has a different countenance. when a Northerner talks about "punk", the likelihood is that he/she is talking about the music/cultural explosion that grabbed Europe by the balls in the late 1970s ... "right in the middle of punk" is a commonly heard saying, for instance. The story of the "punk" period of the late 70s was generally passed down to us, as children, by our eleders
About 6 years ago, I told my then-girlfriend, Nikita the fact that the last time the French used the guillotine was in 1977 -- to which she appeared to have her mind blown, since "he will have listened to punk rock", as she put it. Nikita had presumably, therefore, been told that "punk" had been a late 1970s phenomenon
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I remarked early on in the discussion that it was common for punks to have a liberal mindset on many aspects of life
--
This conversation is getting a bit insipid :|
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by KristinNirvana »

I'm not trying to be rude by saying this but you have a tendency to come off almost mansplainy, like you think you know it all but aren't always correct and still have more to learn. I see this conversation as pointless now frankly.
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Re: Why do punk rockers hate Ronald Regan

Post by XsInMyEyes »

I am sorry if it came off like I was "mansplaining", that was not how I indented it.
I think that coming from different countries, where punk was differently received, we are inevitably going to have differing opinions of what this word, and movement means to us.
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Shame that "Schneider" ended up being a Donald Trump fan though...
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