Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

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Gigglesx0
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by Gigglesx0 »

Hello person I dont know
Hi :)
Hello, I'm Ellie andd...
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I believe in Rock & Roll and the power to be an individual and be original. I will never belong to anyone.

Creeper113
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by Creeper113 »

Gigglesx0 wrote:
Hello person I dont know
Hi :)
I can tell by your signature that you are living off the grass and the drippings from the ceiling
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Gigglesx0
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by Gigglesx0 »

Creeper113 wrote: I can tell by your signature that you are living off the grass and the drippings from the ceiling
Quite so. From time to time, I like to make the grass into somewhat of a salad type thing. Yaknow? x]
Hello, I'm Ellie andd...
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I believe in Rock & Roll and the power to be an individual and be original. I will never belong to anyone.

theLeopard
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by theLeopard »

Fuzz Face wrote:Who´s better then Nirvana?

...

Because they are alive and still doing their thing. Because no matter how great Nirvana ever were: Someday you´ll reach the point when you´ve heard it all. And then comes the point when you´ve heard it all A LOT and when you decide you´ll put on their records on special occasions only, because you want to keep on loving this band...
Music is better if the artist is alive?
I must disagree.
Music is art; art is timeless.
Is modern art "better" than Renaissance art?
Were the works of Salvador Dali or Picasso better than DiVinci's "Mona Lisa", or Michelangelo's "The Creation of Man" , or Van Gogh's "The Starry Night"?
That is, of course, a matter of opinion.
Perhaps being modern makes your work "better", but perhaps it doesn't.
Personally, I think one of the greatest aspects of art is that it transcends time.
If there is true quality, that quality will be recognized long after the artist dies.
Mozart, Beethoven, Lennon, Hendrix, hell even Tupac; the list is endless.
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Silvergun Superman wrote:music is becoming WAY too mainstream.

otherimprov
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by otherimprov »

this morning when i woke up i wanted to listen to come as you are. Its almost been a year i havent listened to Nirvana, so today i started with come as you are and listened to them for the whole day. I must say i enjoyed alot and it was very good feeling
Its for sure i'll never get tired of them but keeping limit only with Nirvana would be running away from so many good bands
Eat your water and drink your vegetables

cupid_come_as_u_r
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by cupid_come_as_u_r »

theLeopard wrote:
Fuzz Face wrote:Who´s better then Nirvana?

...

Because they are alive and still doing their thing. Because no matter how great Nirvana ever were: Someday you´ll reach the point when you´ve heard it all. And then comes the point when you´ve heard it all A LOT and when you decide you´ll put on their records on special occasions only, because you want to keep on loving this band...
Music is better if the artist is alive?
I must disagree.
Music is art; art is timeless.
Is modern art "better" than Renaissance art?-aside from the Mannerist painters and composers, most of it is technically awesome, but simply uninspiring on a spiritual and emotional level
Were the works of Salvador Dali or Picasso better than DiVinci's "Mona Lisa", or Michelangelo's "The Creation of Man" , or Van Gogh's "The Starry Night"?-yes, also, Starry Night is prime modern art, and you picked the most plebeian "modern artists", skipping over Tzara, Russolo, Kandinsky, Stella, Mondrian (fucking Dutch master, ya dingus), thee list could go on
That is, of course, a matter of opinion.
Perhaps being modern makes your work "better", but perhaps it doesn't.
Personally, I think one of the greatest aspects of art is that it transcends time.
If there is true quality, that quality will be recognized long after the artist dies.
Mozart, Beethoven, Lennon, Hendrix, hell even Tupac; the list is endless.-Then please, go on.
I've been on /mu/ too long.

otherimprov
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by otherimprov »

:lol:
Eat your water and drink your vegetables

theLeopard
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by theLeopard »

The paintings I selected were from my book "Masters of Painting" by Bernadine Kielty.
I go to shows, have known artists, and have basic knowledge of technique; but I am certainly not an 'authority' nor do I aim to be.
And perhaps I am inaccurately using the label "modern art", but when I speak of modern I mean art today - not the modernist movement.
Van Gogh died over a century ago; in this context he is far from modern.
And yes, modern art is greater than DaVinci's "Vitruvian Man" or "Mona Lisa"?
:roll: There are many who will disagree with you there.

The point is your opinion (Nirvana is not the greatest band) is yours, and you're free to make it.
But I must object to your qualification (because Kurt is dead).
By that logic Beiber is a greater musician than Miles Davis simply because he's alive and can produce music.
The ability to be able to produce inferior art does not outweigh the greatness of past works.

So perhaps Nirvana is not the greatest band.
Respectfully, I disagree.
But if they aren't, it is most certainly not due to Kurt's death.
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Silvergun Superman wrote:music is becoming WAY too mainstream.

P A I V
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by P A I V »

I don't think Kurt's death has anything to do with the quality of their music, but I don't believe they are the best band ever.

Music is subjective; you gain something out of music due to your upbringing and every single event that has shaped and conditioned you intellectually, emotionally, and in this case, sonically. My musical ear developed from bands like Avenged Sevenfold and System of a Down and then nuanced into Alice in Chains and Tool and now to Beck, Sundgarden, Amon Tobin and Bonobo. I believe I have a wider musical taste than most, especially in music from 1990 to 2012.

Something about Nirvana doesn't work for me, and the thing that bugs me most about them is that I can't tell you what it is. It obviously isn't the fact that they are too "noisy" because I love The Jesus Lizard and Tar (also anyone who considers Nirvana "noisy" has no idea what noise rock is). It's not because their music is entirely simple power chord riffs, because I love Mudhoney. It's not because it's too poppy and simply structured, because Best Coast's "Crazy for You" is one of my favorite albums. I think it is a combination of all of that, plus a production method I don't like, bass I am not engaged by, and a heavily image-conscious frontman that has been deified beyond criticism. Obviously the last of those was a personal thing but I would be lying if I said it didn't affect my enjoyment of their music.

I need two things from music: the passion of every person involved to be exemplified (including the producer and, if possible, the artist making the cover art) and a sincere curiosity being explored in the creation of this work. I personally don't find either to truly show in any of their work except for Bleach...and hardly even there. Bleach has the "getting our footing" kind of sound that I really enjoy hearing from bands, and Jack Endino is doing what he does best and you can hear the passion of all of them exemplified in the album. There is some curiosity being explored as well, although it is pretty regimented to the simplistic structure. A logical artistic progression would be something a little less bogged down by distortion with some more nuanced musicianship, I'd say.

Nevermind implores similar song structure, more thought out (yet still ultimately vacuous, IMO) lyrics, a much sleeker (not necessarily a bad) production style, and...nothing too challenging for the listener or the musicians. The passion given from the first album sort of plateaus. The only people who seem to be genuinely expressing their passion are Dave and Butch...the two guys who weren't involved with Bleach. I don't hate Nevermind because there isn't anything to hate or to love in my mind because its something too harmless to stir up any kind of deep emotional connection. I think it was ultimately written for people who want something simpler than what works for me, I guess. I need more depth than Nirvana can offer is the conclusion I draw from Neverind.

And then, of course, there is the often hailed and often lambasted In Utero, which I think is kind of a good and kind of a bad album. Songs that were written specifically to annoy the fan base they built out of shallow idiots, songs that were written specifically to entice those same people...I feel like they were dancing on the line between breaking though an artistic barrier and making more easily digestible hits. I know Kurt said he didn't want to write any more songs like "Polly", with the verse chorus verse structure. I think if they ever got to explore that I would probably have a different opinion of them. Maybe not, though...it just seems like his stuff wasn't ever going to be for me. If I want acoustic, simple, and heartfelt I have my early Beck. If I want heavy and angry I have plenty of other, more genuine sounding Grunge music. If I want music that makes me want to break things I have plenty of Melvins and Soundgarden. If I want poppy rock music I have the Pixies. If I want depressed music, I have Alice in Chains. I think all of those artists fit my musical needs more than Nirvana ever could.

And now I finally have mapped out why they don't work for me, it feels good to finally be able to work that out.
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cupid_come_as_u_r
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by cupid_come_as_u_r »

Wow...
That is kind of apt...
Paul...
Shit.
Soundgarden are a bit too nuanced to angst to imo, I prefer blasting Godflesh, Big Black, Skywave, or Goslings.
*cough* recommend me something *cough*
(I don't see how you don't love Krist's bass on In Utero, that is some good shit)

cupid_come_as_u_r
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by cupid_come_as_u_r »

theLeopard wrote:The paintings I selected were from my book "Masters of Painting" by Bernadine Kielty. [A]
I go to shows, have known artists, and have basic knowledge of technique; but I am certainly not an 'authority' nor do I aim to be.
And perhaps I am inaccurately using the label "modern art", but when I speak of modern I mean art today - not the modernist movement.[B]
Van Gogh died over a century ago; in this context he is far from modern.
And yes, modern art is greater than DaVinci's "Vitruvian Man" or "Mona Lisa"?
:roll: There are many who will disagree with you there .[C]

The point is your opinion (Nirvana is not the greatest band) is yours, and you're free to make it.
But I must object to your qualification (because Kurt is dead). [D]
By that logic Beiber is a greater musician than Miles Davis simply because he's alive and can produce music. [E]
The ability to be able to produce inferior art does not outweigh the greatness of past works.

So perhaps Nirvana is not the greatest band.
Respectfully, I disagree.
But if they aren't, it is most certainly not due to Kurt's death.
A: Greeeeeat.
B: Then list some contemporary developments, guy *cough* he thinks modernism was a unified "movement"*cough
C: An equal amount would agree with me. Fuck the Mona Lisa. Fuck her serene smile and pregnant belly and grey lakes and trees. Give me Duchamp's The Bride Stripped Bare or Balla's Funeral of Galli any day. And guess what? It's my opinion. There is no need to be so colonfrustrated.
D-E: What kinda motin are you smoking, Thurston? Sure does make your basic human logic go out the winda'.
Give me an indepth opinion on three of the groups from my list.

theLeopard
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by theLeopard »

Seems you've stumbled upon the cynicism, and dislike it.

For me, Nirvana expresses, with loud abrasive sound, the rejection of norms. Mores. Ethos.
And I dig the poetry.
He was as cynical with his poetry as he was with his actions.

I think its hard for people to understand (my interpretation anyway) if they aren't genuinely unhappy.
With societies expectations, the labels and boxes, the rules and regulations;
whilst all the while calling it a free society.
Negative creep is an appropriate anthem, but there are many more to choose from.
And If you wouldn't care, I would like to leave
And If you wouldn't mind, I would like to breathe
And then after all that, after reaching what most people consider to be the pinnacle,
he threw away what so many desire, what so many would kill for, and suicide.
I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying he should have, some even argue it was murder,
but looking at a life, as a work of art, it was really the only way for him to go.
Otherwise the painting would've been left unfinished.

But then again, maybe I just have a twisted mind and am reading too far into it.
That's why I like them though.
Image
Silvergun Superman wrote:music is becoming WAY too mainstream.

theLeopard
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by theLeopard »

cupid_come_as_u_r wrote:C: An equal amount would agree with me. Fuck the Mona Lisa. Fuck her serene smile and pregnant belly and grey lakes and trees. Give me Duchamp's The Bride Stripped Bare or Balla's Funeral of Galli any day. And guess what? It's my opinion. There is no need to be so colonfrustrated.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. At all.
I wasn't objecting to your opinion.
I'm objecting to your qualifications.
And I already quoted it, I'm not going to quote it again.
Reread the OP if you're still confused.

EDIT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernist_art
Modern art includes artistic works produced during the period extending roughly from the 1860s to the 1970s
Yeah. Modernist movement meaning "Modern Art" as the movement of the time period.
Because art made today is not labeled "modern art"; but when I said 'modern' I meant art made today.
Not sure where you think my err is, but I clearly covered this in the previous post.
Last edited by theLeopard on Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Silvergun Superman wrote:music is becoming WAY too mainstream.

cupid_come_as_u_r
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by cupid_come_as_u_r »

God damn, your logic is disjointed.

theLeopard
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Re: Umm.... if grunge is dead then so am I

Post by theLeopard »

Which logic?
The rejection of the notion that dying makes your art less valuable?
That was your post, and that's all I'm arguing against.
Last time I checked the cliché is that your art is worth shit until you're dead.
Then again, it is just a cliché.

We got off on the wrong foot, and I probably should have been more polite with my OP,
and for that you have my apologies,
but for now I'm going to smoke a cigarette and rest because my bones hurt.
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Silvergun Superman wrote:music is becoming WAY too mainstream.

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