Grunge Forum

i was winding you up,while taking a jab at your work ethic.pretty damn well i thought to.

damn it your fiesty at the moment.nice to see you happy though.

You could also say that Black Flag and Flipper were the first two Grunge bands.

That's called Punk, and you know it. Altought they were both influences to the bands that later became 'grunge', calling them grunge would be, in my mind at least, pure bullshit.

Considering their sound was actually even more raw and dirty then any Grunge band it is fair to say they called at least be considered the first two. So no it would not be bullshit.

Well, ya know, it's all up to how ya define 'grunge'. I mean, grunge as a genre was really just something the media more or less ''made up'' so that it was easier to market the 'Seattle scene', wasn't it? 'Course, I was borned the year Cobain died, so please do correct me if I've got the wrong idea 'bout this.

Don't get the wrong idea of my view here, please, I love bands like Black Flag, Bad Brains, The Germs, Flipper and Fang (the latter two are actually some of my favourites, ever), but that's 'cuz they're freaking great, not because I find them "grungy". But, yeah, I can totally understand how some people can call Flipper grunge, since it's noicy, slow-ish punk rock -Black Flag, however, is pure punk in my mind. It's all about how you define 'Punk' and 'Grunge', and where you place the line.

No I see what you are saying. I agree about the genre Grunge honestly. Mudhoney and Nirvana were the punk rock groups of the scene and the rest were hard rock alt metal.

Black Flag and Flipper were proto-grunge if you will. Just like the Stooges and MC5 were proto-punk.

Sure.

The problem with grunge as a genre is, to me, exactly this; that no matter how raw, dirty and awesome it was, it wouldn't matter unless some idot-journalist labeled them 'grunge' and shoved money into their faces. I mean, if we (as in those of us that listen to grunge today) were to redefine the genre these days, I would probably do my best to get those bands into the pot, because they're awesome. I mean, seriously, they placed Pearl Jam and Nirvana in the same box. 'course, a lotta people consider Pearl Jam grunge, althought they aint raw or dirty. Basically, the problem is that it was originally badly defined, by idiots.

So, yeah. I'm gonna try calling Flipper and Black Flag proto-grunge for a while, and see if the back of my head agrees. Also, I do apoligize for the tone of my first post, wasn't in the best of moods.

No apology needed.

I know what it is like to be in the worst of moods. I am currently in a state of rage and depression with a side of suicidal thought.

Mark Arm from Mudhoney labeled it grunge but the media used it...and hey...i got no problems with the term grunge, but as Eddie Vedder said "Its just lasy to label us and Nirvana in the same genre".

Who lumped Black Flag and Flipper into the whole grunge debate??

Grunge was something the media came up with??? Mark Arm did that, the media just helped spread it around. I think there is such huge confusion about what band is or is not grunge is because 1) no two grunge band sounds the same and 2) it mends both punk and metal together so you won't get a straighforward sound. The term grunge wasn't some corporate hedgehog came up with, it was someone who was playing the music, just because the papers ran away with it doesn't mean anyone is to blame or at fault.

It depends how you you go about defining the term and how to label other bands....No matter what, whatever the label i'll still listen to it if its good....I could give a shit if its Polka or something. If it sounds good, i'll buy the record. Listen to Nirvana and Melvins, or Skin Yard and Flop, they sound nothing alike yet they're all considered grunge. Why don't we just cut ou the middle man and use the term for the gener "whatchamacallit!"...Easier for everyone and no need to explain! Thats why when I talk about the bands i like i use the term "Northwest Music" because it stops the whole debate cold....And I don't only listen to grunge so it helps

I call it seattle sound. Even if you compare Nirvana, Pearl Jam and AIc they dont sound nothing alike.

I've been known to say "Northwest Music Scene" just because a lot of bands were not from Seattle, but from another state in the northwest, and a lot of the time some of the bands don't even sound like Mudhoney or Melvins...Take Flop for instance they're a typical pop kinda band, Young Fresg Fellows are the same, Coffin Break are more pop, Mother Love Bone have that arena rock feel. But everybody calls it grunge....So to cover every base and to stop confusion I just say "Northwest Music Scene"

It's a mouthful, but it works

No dude, they were Punk. Hardcore punk to be specific. They were very influential, but that's not the same at all. Their ethos was totally different from grunge bands.

How does everyone here feel about the wipers 1979 releases, better off dead... and is this real?

I find it hard to swallow that this band is seen as such a footnote... Cobain even said in his journals that grunge more than likely originated from Portland in Oregon with the wipers. I would definitely say i consider these a grunge band... infact probably the very first. Green River are cool n stuff.. overlord are still late in comparason to the wipers... and even if we want to be geographically specific, look at u-men (active from 1981).

I'll bet someones already said all this so excuse me if i have re-trodden old ground but i couldn't be going through so many pages lol...

anyway, why so many tributes to them if they didn't kickstart something? (yes i am referring to 14 songs for greg sage and the wipers)

dunno... just a though

From what I know, a lot of the members of grunge bands, documentries, books have always referred the Wipers as a punk band. They're even featured on the Northwest Passage: Portland Punk movie. I personally, never considered or thought of them as a grunge band to be honest, I always assosciated them with punk since they shred bills with a lot of punk bands, a lot of other band members refer to them as a punk, and so on.

I love the U-Men, and I can 100% understand why people would consider the U-Men as the first grunge band, they did have members who would later go on to play in some pretty great Seattle bands. However, Overlord released their demo tape in 1982, and were playing a little before that as well so the time overlaps with the U-Men.

Trying to find out who the first grunge band is such a slippary slope, you can look at so many bands and come up with some legit excuses and facts to back up why they might be the very first. You can even look at compilations such sa " Seattle Syndrome" and "Holier Than Seattle" and find bands even before the U-Men, Wipers and Overlord came out that sound somewhat grungey.